SYCAMORE PROJECT PODCAST
Join Jud Jones as he draws from his years of studying the Bible and practical ministry to reflect on scripture. Each episode Jud will “climb the Sycamore tree” to get a clear view of Jesus. He will also interview guests, asking them to reflect on their own journeys following Jesus. We hope you will join us.
SYCAMORE PROJECT PODCAST
Motion is the Lotion with Frank Lawrence
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This time Jud is joined by Frank Lawrence, CEO of The Little Rock Athletic Club. They talk marriage, mentorship and living a life of excellence.
This episode was produced by NOMAD Podcast Productions
Theme music by Jasper Reddin
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Hello, I'm Judd Jones. I've been in direct ministry for 45 years and recently have founded Stickamore Project, where we strive to help people get a clearer view of Jesus. And also, welcome to Stickamore Project Podcast, where in each episode I will interview an individual and ask them how they have seen Jesus clearly, and in what ways are they helping others get a clearer view. So I hope you will join me as we climb the Sycamore tree, just like Zacchaeus did to get a clear view of Jesus. Hey everybody, welcome to our newest episode of the Sycamore Project Podcast. We've got an incredible guest today, and I want to encourage us to climb a tree, take a breath, step away from the busyness, and let's get a clearer view of Jesus. So uh, Jamie, I thought that uh Jamie's our producer, by the way. You can't see him, but he's right over there, and I love this guy. And Jamie, I've got a thought for the day. Okay. You want to hear it?
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01So have you ever read a devotional in the morning or read scripture or whatever kind of meditation you might do? Have you ever done that? And then say an hour later, you can't remember anything that you just did. Right? Yeah. And I may be the only one, but that uh has happened to me quite a bit. And so here's a nugget for us today. Uh a dear old friend, Ronnie Smith, shared with me a long time ago, he says, Judd, what you need is a prompt. And a prompt is uh a device that you decide is going to help you remember, say, the scripture you read, like this morning for me, 2 Timothy 1.7, uh, that God didn't give us a spirit of fear or timidity, but power, love, and self-discipline. So my prompt is anytime I walk up and down a stairs today, I'm prompted to say that scripture, pray that prayer, and live that out. And so it's just a small encouragement to if you're struggling with that and you want to feel like you're more in touch with the Lord during the day, find a prompt, open and closing a door. Could even be going to the bathroom. If you're old like me, you do that more than you used to. But any of those things uh will, I think, help you uh be more intentional about your walk of faith. How's that sound, Jamie? Great, great. Hey, I want to introduce y'all to my friend Frank Lawrence. Hey, Frank. Hey, Judd. Man, it's thanks for joining us.
SPEAKER_00Well, it's an honor. Honor to be with you.
SPEAKER_01Well, you're you're a one cool dude. Uh I just uh I love hanging out with you. You always encourage and challenge me. So uh tell me a little bit about yourself. Like uh who uh how long have you been married, your wife's name, you've got a son and daughter, what are they up to these days? I know that Jack is up in Alaska doing crazy stuff up there in the middle of nowhere, and then uh Caroline is doing what Caroline's doing. So just tell us more about it.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, uh Arkansas Boy uh grew up in the River Valley, Russell, Dardanelle area, went to Hendrix College, been in Little Rock almost 27 years, 26, 27 years now, grew up as a banker. Now I'm in the health club business, uh, and that is a lot of fun. And so uh been married uh to Jill, or we've been dating now for almost almost 40 years. Like you said, been dating. 38 years. I mean, you still should pursue and date, right? Exactly. So we've been dating that long, and uh we've been fortunate to be married for 33 years and have uh two great kids. Jack, uh University of Arkansas graduate, and he is a fly fishing guide, and he spends his uh year, he spends four months in Alaska, and then he spends eight months in Arkansas.
SPEAKER_01Then describe for us, because I love this, how hard is it for you like if you wanted to get to him? Oh, yeah, how many flights, how many fly float planes and hikes it takes to get to his lodge?
SPEAKER_00It would take a while to get to him. You would fly to uh from here to Anchorage, which is one to two flights or two or two to three flights, and then from Anchorage to another small fishing village, and then from that fishing village, they pick you up in a float plane, and it's probably two float plane flights to get to him in the middle of the bush. And so he lives in a tent uh out there for four months, and they fly clients to him, and uh the plane is his lifeline, and that's that's it. But he runs up and down a river for four months catching fish.
SPEAKER_01That is amazing.
SPEAKER_00And then uh blessed to have a daughter who uh just graduated from Sanford uh uh university. Oh, she just graduated. Yeah, she uh finished in May. She's going back for one more year for her MBA, and uh she's doing an internship currently at Dillard's, and she's uh she's great. So yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01Uh and uh your bride is uh a really kind of semi-famous interior designer, right?
SPEAKER_00She's an interior designer. Uh primary business is here in central Arkansas, but she works all over the country and um has been fortunate to be able to do that for about 33 years and uh has a great business and uh very talented at what she does.
SPEAKER_01Well, here's one thing, and there's so many, but here's one thing that captures me about that I've observed about you. And it's first of all, your intentionality. I mean, you're very intentional about what you do every day and who you meet with, and uh we won't have time to get into it today, but every year you for several years now you write your annual manifesto uh about well, really it's about disciplines in your life and what you want to accomplish and achieve. And the other thing about that is uh is is just the the drive that you have to uh to be the best version of yourself that you could be. And I believe that a big part of that is the life of faith. And so the first question for today, my friend, is who in your life has given you a closer view of what I would say is the real Jesus? Who's done that in your life?
SPEAKER_00Well, there are lots of stories that I could tell, and and if we have an opportunity, maybe I'll tell more than one. But I think as I think about that question, and I think about my faith journey and my relationship with Christ, uh, I think about probably the one person that really pointed me there uh the most and continues to point me uh to Christ on a daily basis, and that's really my brother, George. Uh George was two years younger than I was, uh, or they he is two years younger than I am. And um he he and I grew up, we were best buddies and we were best enemies at the same time. And we grew up as most boys do uh in a household, we fought all the time and we were competitive, et cetera. And it's ironic, Judd, the relationship we have because young life is a big part of his story. But I I received Christ when I was in eighth grade, kind of had the mountaintop moment, and I was a good kid. I mean, I was a decent kid in high school, but I went off to college, and like uh a lot of us, we get to college, and it's like you have all the adult uh privileges and none of the adult responsibilities. And so I tested some boundaries in that process. At the same time, George uh was very active in young life. He was a football player, incredibly disciplined young man. He got to college, and when he got to college, he came to play football, but he came with a purpose. And his purpose uh was a football, a grades, going to med school, et cetera. But his purpose was to share the love of Christ. And he really did that with uh an extreme intentionality, uh, but he didn't, and he did it boldly, et cetera. But at the same time, he did it in everyday life. He was on the football team and he he he tells these great stories, he'd tackle people, and you know, he'd be in their face after he creamed them and he goes, Jesus loves you. And uh they'd spit on him and all of that. And but he did that uh and he impacted lives in a very intentional way. So I got to see that from across the tracks at Hendricks, he was at UCA playing football. And ultimately, over the period of my college career, he really led me to man, I need to really focus on this relationship with Christ. And you could fast forward that story again 30 plus years later, and it continues. He continues to point me towards that relationship with Christ in all kinds of ways.
SPEAKER_01Wow, wow. Uh that's just amazing, actually, because you know, just siblings don't necessarily have that kind of relationship, and that's uh so all the things that he modeled for you and with you and continues to uh what would be one uh important lesson that you've learned from him that you take with you every day?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean I think i i it is what I think we know in in the Christian uh faith in the journey is it is about that relationship with Christ and putting that first and then from that the rest of your relationship should flow. And he is just intentional about that. And uh it is that lesson that I try to model in my daily life uh with my relationships as well.
SPEAKER_01Well, let's kind of flip the coin, if you will. That's the that's the beautiful part. Yeah, sometimes we struggle, right? So what has been your biggest struggles in living your faith out as a businessman, as a husband, as a father, and as a friend?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I think you could you could take all four of those threads, right? And I probably have a story for for all of those. I think the one when you ask that question, the one that's most relevant to me is probably the the one as a husband. And uh as you mentioned earlier, I I write a word of the year, I try to write goals of the year, try to write this intentional kind of script, right? Of what am I focused on? What am I gonna accomplish over the next year? And again, I think it's a very good document. I think it's a good intentionality to have. And for me, uh, it does help center me uh on a regular basis. And so about 18 months ago, uh updated my document. We I was I thought I was doing great. I mean, I was I was hitting on all cylinders. Yeah, I've read that document from from my perspective. I was doing a lot of good things, I thought. But we get back to the story of where I failed as a husband, uh, is Jill and I were having a very uh um emotional conversation. And she was upset. And I'm like, Jill, I'm killing it. I am doing all the right things. I mean, I love Jesus, I love people, I love our kids, I love our family, I love our life, and I'm and look, here are all the things I'm doing on a daily basis. Um You really laid that out for me. I laid it out. She and I share my document with her. And I said, I have all of these priorities. And Jill, you are a priority in all of this. And then, of course, the two by four came right between the eyes. And the two by four was she says, That's the problem. And I said, What do you mean that's the problem? She goes, I need to be the priority in this process. You're putting everything else ahead of us in that process. And that was a game changer for me. Wow.
unknownWow.
SPEAKER_01Oh, I can I can relate, I feel it, and uh wow, I that's the problem. I want to be the priority. Yeah, wow, wow.
SPEAKER_00Uh things better today, things are better today. Um, and again, I I think that I do want to accomplish a lot. I do want to be intentional, and I want God to be able to use me in all areas of my life. And because of that, sometimes it is hard to always make sure that she is the priority before I make other commitments or I make other uh promises to other people. And so now having that lens of of really looking through of, hey, before I commit to do this podcast with Judd, do I, you know, do I need to clear that with Jill or do I need to make sure it doesn't interfere with something she and I have committed to do? Um and so, yes, things are way better. We I was on a great, I was on a walk this morning with one of our old mutual friends, and we were telling a great story uh that I was big into triathlons at the time. And that just gives you an example of how Jill was not always the priority. We we were going to a triathlon in Memphis, uh a big group of us. This was a Friday night. We're at supper at our house. We had a big supper club, and my friend uh is there and we're yucking it up. Uh, and he's talking to Jill and he says, So, Jill, has Frank told you yet that we're leaving tomorrow morning to go to Memphis to a triathlon? And I had I had not. Now, again, this was many years ago. And I had not, because I was just gonna not disappoint her and just leave the next day, and uh that didn't go well, but that's a good example of how she was not always the priority. I was promising to others, making commitments, having things that I just really didn't involve her in the process necessarily. Yeah, it was a great story, by the way.
SPEAKER_01So uh yeah. Well, and I have a similar story that just happened on Friday, the uh just the other day. I you know, where I pray every morning I've have for the last couple of years that I would preference my wife, and sometimes I slip up. And on Friday, uh I've got the grandsons in town, my both my sons are are with me, and we decided to go fishing. And my son Braden handed his one and a half year old daughter to my wife and said, Here, can you take Mariah? We're going fishing. And which we did, and we caught a lot of fish, it was great, uh, and taught the grandsons to fish. And then when I got home, uh my bride who doesn't get upset very often was very upset because she felt like I and my son didn't ask her and didn't include her. Yeah. Uh, because she loves to fish. And I just it was a miss. I just missed it. And so uh I certainly apologized and there may have been some groveling involved, yeah. But it it's an example of sometimes we make mistakes, yeah.
SPEAKER_00That's right. And again, it's just a reminder of the lens in which you try to make decisions and and when you're living these intentional lives that hopefully we're all living, that you filter it through that lens, basically, right? Yeah.
SPEAKER_01So in in what ways are you intentionally striving to uh to show the real Jesus to other people in your world, in your your life?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, uh a lot of ways, hopefully, right? Hopefully just everyday living and uh whether again it's in those those roles of being the husband, the the father, uh the businessman. Um so hopefully a lot of those particular ways. But I think probably the thing that I'm pretty focused on now, and I'm not quite as old as you are, Judd. I know you had a big birthday. Oh well, thank you. Yeah, you're you're welcome and happy birthday for that. But I am on this other side of life now where I used to go to lunches or breakfast or coffee and I would seek out mentors, and I still do, but now I'm seeking out uh my kids' generation, maybe a generation even above them slightly, but I'm seeking out particularly young men, and just I remember being 30 and trying to make those decisions as a father or being 25 and trying to make that decision as a leader of where my career's going or all those things, and trying to have that interaction with young men and doing that in an intentional way, just to let them know hey, they have an advocate, they have somebody in me that they can run ideas through uh and by uh because it's uh that was a tough time. And having older men in my life was very impactful um in that process.
SPEAKER_01Well, and it's awesome that you were intentional about seeking those those men out. Yeah. And so and now you you're paying it forward, if you will.
SPEAKER_00That's right. And so, you know, the the practice for me is I try to have one of those guys um at least a month and do a lunch, a coffee, whatever that may look like. But uh try to find at least one, if not more. But there's no agenda besides building the relationship with them.
SPEAKER_01I love that. Um, my wife and I just experienced something similar. We did premarital counseling for a uh a young couple, a guy that I meet with every week. He's 26 years old. They're both both 26. And I just officiated their wedding uh on Sunday.
SPEAKER_00Wow.
SPEAKER_01Up on Petty Jean Mountain, yeah, here in Arkansas. And as I looked in their eyes and I'm doing my little message, and then we get into vows and rings. I even though we've done premarital counseling, my wife said this to them at the end of our premarital. She said, I know you guys probably haven't soaked in or listened to almost anything we've said, but let's revisit in a year and see where you are. Yeah. And as I looked in their eyes at the wedding, I'm just thinking, I love you guys and you love each other, and I I know you both love the Lord, but you honestly have no clue.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, and I mean, what a what a gift. Uh uh we were fortunate when Jill and I got married, Dan Gerrell, who many people in central Arkansas may remember years ago, but Dan uh did our premarital counseling, and here we are 33 years into our marriage, and we still we probably didn't in that first year to to your example there, but here we are 33 years later. We're constantly pointing back to those five or six meetings. I mean, it wasn't like we met all the time, but we probably had 10 hours of of interaction with Dan and his wife, and we reflect back on that. So, I mean, what a gift that is.
SPEAKER_01It's it's fun, yeah. It's a fun uh stage of life. I call it being in the final third, and uh if people are teachable and they you know it's great to to give back with the the next generation, younger generation. Uh so I've got three other things, and these are quick answers, they don't have to be long. Uh uh just so everybody knows uh uh well I call you the beast, I call you and what you're really your best friend, the crazy beast. Yeah. Uh and because of that, you're very intentional about working out and being healthy and staying healthy. And so if you could just give one simple piece of advice uh that for anybody that's listening to this podcast. Podcast about uh getting in shape and staying in shape. What would be your one piece of advice?
SPEAKER_00Motion is the lotion. So just move, whatever that may look like for you. Um Motion is the lotion. Yeah, there you go. It just by moving, uh, you're making progress. And I I've my my health journey, my fitness journey reminds me a lot of my spiritual journey as well. I mean, you you think back, and again, you spent your career, uh, your profession in in this world. And I I've always been amazed that people think, oh, I have to clean up my life uh before I could go to church or before I could go to a young life group or whatever. I I need to be a good person, right? Um, which is the total opposite message of what Christianity is and and the the grace that that Christ gave us, right? Well, the same happens in the health and fitness journey. People say, oh, well, I need to I need to get in shape before I come work out with you, Frank. I need to get in shape before I go hang out with you on a run or on a hike. I've hung out this morning with five guys in All Sop Park, but I need to be in shape before I do that. No, you don't. Just show up. Just show up in motion is the lotion. So I love that. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01I'm gonna do some moving today. There you go. So uh one piece of advice you would give to your 21-year-old self.
SPEAKER_00Where do you find your identity? You know, most people find our identity in our profession, in the value of our relationship with other people. Uh maybe it's at 21, you're in school, maybe you find your identity in the school you go to, et cetera. But where do you find your identity? I find most 21-year-olds, just because I had kids that have gone through that recently, find it in their relationship with friends, et cetera. And so, where do you find that identity? And, you know, hopefully you're finding that in Christ. And that that is a game changer. And I've been fortunate uh with my daughter to see that in recent times. She's had uh all those challenges that I think most kids have in colleges. And again, she lives a very privileged life, but uh she has had challenges in those relationships. And the the the message I kept giving her is where do you find your identity? Uh I love Judd, and I want to spend time with Judd, and I want to uh have a relationship with Judd, but I can't make Judd love me, and I can't make Judd uh react the way that I want Judd to react. Uh that's up to Judd, and it's ultimately up to Christ of what he does with that. So, where do you find your identity? And hopefully you're finding that identity in Christ.
SPEAKER_01That's a great word. Speaking of a word, what uh is one word? Well, uh Jesus in one word, what would that word be?
SPEAKER_00Love, I'll throw the other grace, is the is the big word for me right now. Okay.
SPEAKER_01Let's go with grace. I love it. Yeah, uh, Frank, thanks for joining us. It's been a joy to have you on this podcast. Uh, you are a dear soul. And for all of us out there, thanks for joining us on this episode of the Sycamore Project Podcast. Remember that the journey, and I think you can see this part of this in this painting, the journey of faith is the greatest adventure. We'll see you and talk to you next time.